November 21, 1997 NBC Dateline covered the earlier 6 April 1997 Ft. Lauderdale Florida boating accident. This sparked another round of discussion about the accident in the recboats newsgroup. Full coverage of the accident is on our 6 April 1997 Ft,. Lauderdale Accident Page and the earlier recboats discussion of the accident is also posted there.

We are looking for a copy of the Dateline program, but have not found one yet. If you have a video copy you could share with us, please drop me an email polsong@virtualpet.com.

Article 1

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:41:51 -0500
From: "James W. Hebert" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

Friday, November 21,1997

If you missed the broadcast tonight on NBC's Dateline
program, there was a good story about a Coast Guard
41-footer crew rescuing a large group of people (11)
whose rental-boat was sinking.

The boat was in the process of sinking when strong tidal
currents swept it under the bow of a barge in the Miami
area Intra-Coastal Waterway.

Three children and eight adults were aboard. They were
all swept into the water and under the barge's bow.
The Coast Guard crew jumped into the water and rescued
almost all of them. (Two of the adults drown.) 

Several observers video-taped the incident, and NBC re-shot
footage of the area, the barge, the 41-footer, etc.
It was an interesting segment.

As for the sinking rental boat: the story identified it
as a Bayliner.

--jim

Article 2

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:37:19 -0800
From: Adrian Brigham <73531.1307@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

Knowing NBC are you sure they didn't drill holes in the bottom of the
rental boat to begin with?

Adrian B.

Article 3

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:06:25 -1000
From: hidda 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue


Isn't this OLD news here in this newsgroup?  Didn't we discuss this
accident months ago?  The make of the boat had nothing to do with the
accident.

Article 4

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:27:23 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:31:49 -0500, Peggie Hall
 wrote:

>> As for the sinking rental boat: the story identified it
>> as a Bayliner.
>
>That's an uncalled-for cheap shot. What does the make of boat have to do
>with whether the skipper gets caught under the bow of a barge?

I don't know if the make of the boat mattered, but the style -- deck
boat -- certainly did.

You need to look at the entire chain of events.

At the beginning of the report, the forward 1/3 of the boat was awash,
with most of the engine/propellor out of the water.

The report said a 'wave' had caused it.   With 11 people, you would
have to suspect poor loading as well.   But, it would seem the style
of the boat, complete open area with regulatively high gunnels
prevented water from draining.   Like a floating hot tub.
One wave gets in, can't drain, and it makes the boat susceptible to
the next.  A bad feedback system.

Anyway, once the boat was awash in this manner, it was basically
carried by the current under the barge.   Being awash, it would
have had a tremendous amount of area in the water.  If the boat
had been floating on it's 'lines' the pax might have been able to
fend off the barge.

The current there keeps growing.   First it was six knots, then
10, and in the nbc report, I think 12.   A couple more reports,
and it will be 20.

>the only likely scenario. In those circumstances, it wouldn't have
>mattered whether the boat was a Bayliner or a Bertram--and if YOU have a
>clue about safe competent boat operation, you know that.

Will actually it would.    If the boat had had a closed bow, or not
been awash when it reached the barge, it probably wouldn't
have gone under the barge.

There was a cop SeaCat that was part of the rescue,
and because it wasn't awash, they were able to keep
from going under the barge by fending off.

The odd thing is that the strongest current, wake and standing
waves are under the bridge.   This boat was in trouble 100-150'
north of the bridge, where there is a lot of boat traffic, but
conditions are not too bad.

My personal theory is that they saw the fuel prices at pier-66
and decided to pack it in.

Article 5

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:48:42 -0500
From: "James W. Hebert" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

In article <34768471.6503@mauigateway.com>, hidda  wrote:

>James W. Hebert wrote:

>Isn't this OLD news here in this newsgroup?  Didn't we discuss this
>accident months ago?  The make of the boat had nothing to do with the
>accident.

The broadcast aired at approx. 8:30 p.m. Friday. I posted the
article about it a two hours later. I don't know if that makes
my article too out-of-date for you, or not.

Perhaps this segment ran a few months ago on another Dateline show.

The intent of the article was not to alert people to the incident
as a new "News event", but to the fact that there was a network
news program convering a boating accident.

If the consensus of the group is that television programs covering
boating topics are not of interest and should not be mentioned,
I will gladly abide by that consensus. However, I doubt that that
is the case.

As for the make of the boat having nothing to do with the
accident, I would point out that:

--I never said it did, I only mentioned that the news story
  identified the make of the boat as a Bayliner. I did not
  imply that there was a causal relationship; you seem to
  have inferred that I did.

--You suggest that the cause of the accident was not related
  to the boat's particular type or manufacturer. I don't have
  enough information to make that decision.

--jim

Article 6

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:55:01 -0500
From: "James W. Hebert" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

In article <655qsl$qr8@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>,
peghall@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>James W. Hebert wrote:
>That's an uncalled-for cheap shot. What does the make of boat have to do
>with whether the skipper gets caught under the bow of a barge?

Peggy,

Are you upset with me or NBC?  The producers of the Dateline show
are the ones who decided to include the information about the 
boat being a Bayliner. 

--jim

Article 7

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:58:24 -0500
From: "James W. Hebert" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

In article <3476be3d.2243165@news1.ibm.net>, (Lee Lindquist) wrote:


>The current there keeps growing.   First it was six knots, then
>10, and in the nbc report, I think 12.   A couple more reports,
>and it will be 20.

Twelve knots was the figured mentioned by NBC's Dateline.
It did seem like an awefully high current for an area regularly
traversed.

How the heck do sailboats get past there? Most small sailboats
are lucky if they can make 5 knots under motor.

--jim

Article 8

Date: 22 Nov 1997 15:04:24 GMT
From: gary tapp 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

I dont think it was the bayliners fault, it was the idiot who was
skippering it.  The story said they took a wave over the bow.  Ive seen
these bow riders out and about where the captain lets everyone get into the
bow and I just wonder when the next wake will take him under.  Im sure that
is the case with bayliner, everyone up front, tying to get a tan and then
the skipper decides to cross a tug's wake and the next thing he know, hes
full of water!

Article 9

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:38:47 -0500
From: Peggie Hall 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

Lee Lindquist wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:31:49 -0500, Peggie Hall
>  wrote:
> 
> >> As for the sinking rental boat: the story identified it
> >> as a Bayliner.
> >
> >That's an uncalled-for cheap shot. What does the make of boat have to do
> >with whether the skipper gets caught under the bow of a barge?
> 
> I don't know if the make of the boat mattered, but the style -- deck
> boat -- certainly did.

No more so than any other open boat...and in this case, maybe any small
boat operated by someone with no seamanship knowledge or skills.

> You need to look at the entire chain of events.
> 
> At the beginning of the report, the forward 1/3 of the boat was awash,
> with most of the engine/propellor out of the water.
> 
> The report said a 'wave' had caused it.   

Most likely the bow wave from the barge...

> With 11 people, you would
> have to suspect poor loading as well.   But, it would seem the style
> of the boat, complete open area with regulatively high gunnels
> prevented water from draining.   Like a floating hot tub.
> One wave gets in, can't drain, and it makes the boat susceptible to
> the next.  A bad feedback system.

Deck boats aren't floating hot tubs..They're built to the same safety
standards as any other style...and some of them are 25' and longer. They
have "self bailing" cockpit drains just like any other boat. In fact,
because they have higher freeboard they're inherently safer--LESS
susceptable to being swamped--than many other small boats...bow riders,
ski boats, even some closed bow cuddies. But you're right that 11 people
is stretching the load limits--of ANY boat in that size/class to the
breaking point.
 
> Anyway, once the boat was awash in this manner, it was basically
> carried by the current under the barge.   Being awash, it would
> have had a tremendous amount of area in the water.  If the boat
> had been floating on it's 'lines' the pax might have been able to
> fend off the barge.
> 
> The current there keeps growing.   First it was six knots, then
> 10, and in the nbc report, I think 12.   A couple more reports,
> and it will be 20.

The tabloid media goes for drama and sensation, not truth...and
"Dateline" is tabloid media...
 
> >the only likely scenario. In those circumstances, it wouldn't have
> >mattered whether the boat was a Bayliner or a Bertram--and if YOU have a
> >clue about safe competent boat operation, you know that.
> 
> Will actually it would.    If the boat had had a closed bow, or not
> been awash when it reached the barge, it probably wouldn't
> have gone under the barge.

Don't ever test that theory! Barges create a lot of "undertow"...any
small boat, skippered by someone who didn't have any idea how to do more
than turn the key and go, could have been pulled in once it got too
close.
> 
> There was a cop SeaCat that was part of the rescue,
> and because it wasn't awash, they were able to keep
> from going under the barge by fending off.

Think maybe the cop had seamanship skills that the deck boat operator
didn't?
 
> The odd thing is that the strongest current, wake and standing
> waves are under the bridge.   This boat was in trouble 100-150'
> north of the bridge, where there is a lot of boat traffic, but
> conditions are not too bad.

I think you confirmed that the "wave" was most likely created by the
barge. 

> My personal theory is that they saw the fuel prices at pier-66
> and decided to pack it in.

You may have something there. :-)

Peggie

Article 10

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:02:04 -0500
From: Peggie Hall 
To: "James W. Hebert" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

James W. Hebert wrote:
> Peggy,
> 
> Are you upset with me or NBC?  The producers of the Dateline show
> are the ones who decided to include the information about the
> boat being a Bayliner.

Both...NBC isn't exactly known for getting the facts right--ask Richard
Jewell! After all the Bayliner bashing that's gone on around here, I had
a knee-jerk reaction to the thought of it starting all over again.  But
I actually had second thoughts and went back in and deleted my post an
hour later, but discovered this morning that I was too late...somebody'd
already picked it up and quoted it, and now I'm stuck with it. What are
you people doing UP at that hour anyway???

Peggie

Article 11

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:15:11 GMT
From: Harry Krause 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

I haven't seen a word, pro or con, whether the boat's design or construction
played a part in the disaster. I do know that some manufacturers of boats of
that type and size don't fill the insides with foam, and they tend to be
less bouyant than they should. I do recall that the capacity of the boat in
question was in excess of 11.

It's too bad we don't have a NSTB investigation of fatal boat accidents in
which the equipment contributed to the deaths.

Article 12

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:29:18 -1000
From: hidda 
To: "James W. Hebert" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

> >Isn't this OLD news here in this newsgroup?  Didn't we discuss this
> >accident months ago?  The make of the boat had nothing to do with the
> >accident.
> 
> The broadcast aired at approx. 8:30 p.m. Friday. I posted the
> article about it a two hours later. I don't know if that makes
> my article too out-of-date for you, or not.

You are being a bit too defensive here.  This accident was THE hot topic
here for several weeks from the day the accident happened.  Well, maybe
the next day...  

If you go back in Dejanews, I'm sure you'll find the discussion earlier
in the year.  

The subject of boat make came up during THE heated Bayliner war. 
Although I'm not here to defend Bayliner, we did come to the conclusion
that any make boat of that design would have been in the same accident. 
In other words, we came to the conclusion that it was human error.  The
Captain was at fault.  When the engine comes out of the water, it pretty
much gives you an idea of what was going on.  

In retrospect, I tend to forget that there are new people in this group
every day.  It seems like there's a core group on here who have been
back and forth on different subjects for what seems like years and we
take it for granted that everybody knows what's been going on here.  

Article 13

Date: 23 Nov 1997 12:15:19 GMT
From: Classic Boatworks of Maine 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

We saw the NBC program and I think there is a little confusion as to what
was contained in the piece.

The point of the piece was to commend the Coast Guard crew for their
bravery in the rescue.  It wasn't a focus on the accident itself.
There seem to be some misconceptions about details in the program.
The Barge:  The barge was anchored perpendicular to the bridge as part of
the reconstruction of the bridge.  (parallel to the current and downstream
from the original incident).
The Current:  Both in the home video shots and the NBC shots the current in
that restricted area where the water goes under the bridge was definitely
fast.  The 12 knot report appears accurate.  We used to own and operate
Guilford Boat Yard which is on a tidal river upstream from a rail road
bridge and the current as it goes under the bridge can be deceptively fast
as the tide drains the river into Long Island Sound.
The Operator: The operator of the boat was reported to be totally
inexperienced.

The Load:  The boat appeared to be overloaded.  However, since 1974,
federal law has required flotation so that boats will not sink completely
or roll over.  If they had not been sucked under the barge by the current. 
They would have continued to take on water and stabilized with about 1/3 of
the boat out of the water and could have been rescued further down stream.

The Coast Guard crew members who were involved in the rescue deserved the
commendations they received.  They were willing to put their own safety on
the line to rescue the victims.  The home videos clearly show their
bravery.  Let's all be thankful that we have such dedicated service.
-- 
Marshall and Jo Duhaime,Jr.
Classic Boatworks of Maine

Article 14

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:11:09 -0800
From: Linda Chancler 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

I didn't see the TV show but I live in Ft. Lauderdale about five minutes
away from where this tragedy ocurred.  It did not happen in Miami, it
happened under the 17th Street bridge, next to Pier 66 hotel and marina
on (if I recall correctly) a busy sunday afternoon.  There were many
people present who witnessed the accident, but in the confusion and
bizarre circumstances (people trapped under the barge) little anyone
could do.

I doubt that the type of boat had anything to do with it.  The rental
company never should have rented the boat out to these people.  They
were obviously inexperienced and panic is what killed them.  I also
blame the tourist who was actually driving the boat for renting it in
the first place and putting children at risk.  

Linda Chancler

Article 15

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:41:57 GMT
From: "Peter W. Meek" 
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: NBC's Dateline Boating Rescue

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:48:42 -0500, jimh@w8hd.org (James W. Hebert) wrote:

>The broadcast aired at approx. 8:30 p.m. Friday. I posted the
>article about it a two hours later. I don't know if that makes
>my article too out-of-date for you, or not.
>
>Perhaps this segment ran a few months ago on another Dateline show.
>
It may have; the original accident was:

   "Sunday April 6, 1997 a 25 foot Bayliner rental 
    boat in Fort Lauderdale..." 

    |sidebar; review by pwmeek|
    |From the RECREATIONAL BOAT BUILDING INDUSTRY WEB SITE
    |(RBBI) http://www.virtualpet.com/rbbi/
    |This is a Web Site every boater and boat-industry
    |person should have in his Favorites/Bookmarks.
    |Huge index of recreational boating industry links,
    |news, manufacturers sites, legislative news, and
    |what-have-you. Not clear is how to get from the
    |entry page to the main home page: click on the
    |RBBI Logo. You could spend days exploring this 
    |site and the sites it points to, most not linked
    |from the usual boating web sites. A MAJOR resource!

>The intent of the article was not to alert people to the incident
>as a new "News event", but to the fact that there was a network
>news program convering a boating accident.

The alert was welcome. It is important to all 
recreational boaters to stay aware of how the 
media portrays us, and how it reports things 
of concern to us.

It might have been useful to do a DejaNews 
search and mention that it was old news, though.
This is a time-saver. If you (and everyone else)
would check individually for previous threads
on any new subject, it would save a lot of
duplication. The results of others doing the
same would save you enough time to do such
a search and still leave more time for boating.

  --Pete 

Return to Recreational Boat Building Industry Home Page

---